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I found this on my wanders and thought it was important enough to re-post, even with my relatively limited time. Not sure where it originated.

A lot has been said about how to prevent rape.

Women should learn self-defence. Women should lock themselves in their houses after dark. Women shouldn't have long hair and women shouldn't wear short skirts. Women shouldn't leave drinks unattended. Fuck, they shouldn't dare to get drunk at all.

instead of that bullshit, how about:

if a woman is drunk, don't rape her.
if a woman is walking alone at night, don't rape her.
if a women is drugged and unconscious, don't rape her.
if a woman is wearing a short skirt, don't rape her.
if a woman is jogging in a park at 5 am, don't rape her.
if a woman looks like your ex-girlfriend you're still hung up on, don't rape her.
if a woman is asleep in her bed, don't rape her.
if a woman is asleep in your bed, don't rape her.
if a woman is doing her laundry, don't rape her.
if a woman is in a coma, don't rape her.
if a woman changes her mind in the middle of or about a particular activity, don't rape her.
if a woman has repeatedly refused a certain activity, don't rape her.

if a woman is not yet a woman, but a child, don't rape her.
if your girlfriend or wife is not in the mood, don't rape her.
if your step-daughter is watching tv, don't rape her.
if you break into a house and find a woman there, don't rape her.
if your friend thinks it's okay to rape someone, tell him it's not, and that he's not your friend.

if your "friend" tells you he raped someone, report him to the police.
if your frat-brother or another guy at the party tells you there's an unconscious woman upstairs and it's your turn, don't rape her, call the police and tell the guy he's a rapist.

tell your sons, god-sons, nephews, grandsons, sons of friends it's not okay to rape someone.

don't tell your women friends how to be safe and avoid rape.
don't imply that she could have avoided it if she'd only done/not done x.
don't imply that it's in any way her fault.
don't let silence imply agreement when someone tells you he "got some" with the drunk girl.
don't perpetuate a culture that tells you that you have no control over or responsibility for your actions. You can, too, help yourself.

discussion welcome, as per usual. Repost if you wish.

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Well, I would agree that it is a little one-eyed, but I think it is deliberately so. You regularly- it seems to me- make the mistake of thinking that if something is totally onesided in its presentation, it is therefore either useless, or unaware of reality, or both. This one, I think, yes, it is one-sided. But I think it is trying to make a point- with the one you suggested- that every time a man- or a woman- tells a woman she shouldn't walk home after dark, he or she is, probably unintentionally, propagating the notion that it is a woman's responsibility to prevent her own rape. This isn't saying that women shouldn't try to be safe; it's saying that women shouldn't have to try to be safe, and that today's society is totally geared towards propagating that idea- misguidedly thinking that it is the right thing to do to prevent rape.

EVERYONE needs to take responsibility for their own safety

BZZZT, false answer. If I don't want to be responsible I damn well won't be- and it still isn't my fault if I get raped or mugged. NO-ONE should have to be responsible for their own safety, because no-one is responsible when they come to harm. I think knowing that it is more common to get raped after dark, etc, that's fine so that if you chose to take steps to keep safe (as I do) you can. But no-one should say that I should do this. Because should means "moral obligation to." And I should have no moral obligation (as opposed to practicality) to keep myself safe: it is the moral obligation of others not to harm me.

Wait a second, though.

First, I will note that I'm not so sure "should" automatically means "should because you are morally obligated." There are other types of "should." I think people who post fanfic should attempt to use correct spelling, grammar, and paragraph breaks, but this does not mean I think they are under any moral obligation to do so.

But leaving that aside, in the vein of the troubling implications of language, the line in question doesn't actually say "should" in the first place; it says "how to" -- as in, giving someone information she might be able to use, whether she does or not. The "don't," on the other hand, is on its face a plain old imperative... except that in context, it's part of a long list of other don'ts that are moral obligations. So in context it actually appears to be saying that even though you've just acknowledged that "should be" isn't "is" -- thus having to call the police on people -- it's morally wrong to provide information that might reduce the bad guys' opportunities.

So basically, if the point the line's supposed to make is that saying people "should" protect themselves from attack is a subtly dangerous use of language, I think it might work better if it were itself more carefully phrased.

But leaving that aside, in the vein of the troubling implications of language, the line in question doesn't actually say "should" in the first place; it says "how to" -- as in, giving someone information she might be able to use, whether she does or not.

*g* you caught me. You're right. And that's a very neat breakdown, may I also add.

So basically, if the point the line's supposed to make is that saying people "should" protect themselves from attack is a subtly dangerous use of language, I think it might work better if it were itself more carefully phrased.

I don't know if that was the OP's point, but it's mine, anyway. Thanks for pulling me up. :)

(Yes, I know that's a nitpick. But to me, and I admit that I'm speaking as someone who regularly uses "should" to express "good idea" or even "expectation/prediction" rather than exclusively for "moral obligation," it seems that if you are trying to make a point regarding the careful use of language, it may be helpful to be really careful with your use of language.)

*snerk* you're absolutely correct, and I feel justifiably whipped into shape. I think my point stands, mind you, but you're right about the phrasing.

Hey you did say discuss, not agree ;)

And I know I have an amazing ability to get offended by ANYTHING that shows any bias whatsoever. Makes up for my inability to be offended by the usual stuff that gets people up in arms, like celebrities on drugs or people swearing on tv ;)

As far as I'm concerned the victim isn't to blame for any violence (and rape is simply a sort of violence, albeit the most invasive and emotionally damaging one) unless they knowingly provoke it, but I think everyone is still obliged for their own safety to know how to protect themselves or get away, if they find themself in any dangerous situation. It seems like common sense to me. You don't need to be paranoid or turn any kind of danger into a political issue, but since we don't live in a perfect society where everyone respects each other's rights and the law, we should at least remmeber that bad things happen and know what to do about it when they do.

Yeah, and that was me discussing. :P Feel free to continue; I mean, if I minded I'd have banned you from my journal, like, years ago. ;)

I know you do and sometimes it frustrates me. Er, scratch that, all the time it frustrates me, and I will just continue to discuss that until you, like, cave. Or forever, whichever comes first. :P

and rape is simply a sort of violence, albeit the most invasive and emotionally damaging one

Half of me agrees, and half of me doesn't. I mean, yes, it is a sort of violence. But it is a violence that is loosely defined, half-condoned and in almost every case committed by men, and for the vast majority of cases against women. (If you have statistics on the numbers of rapes committed against men by men, and against men by women, I'd be interested, I really would.) And I generally believe that the point of this meme/address/whatever you'd like to call it is addressing something that is, IMO, a significant prejudice or attitude or problem in society that men are violent and will committ violence against women, and it is the women's responsiblity to protect themselves, not the men's responsiblity to say "enough is enough, men are not going to be like this anymore." rape does not just mean attacking someone in an alley, it means date rape, it means having sex with your drunk female friend or aquaintance, it means taking advantage of a very significant biological difference between men and women. So in that way, no, rape isn't just any other form of violence, it is a form of violence that society views very very oddly in that, unlike the committers of almost any other type of violence, violent rapists are immediately demonised and separated from the male population- thus absolving them; I believe if there was one sort of violence women committed almost exclusively, people would not get offended when this was pointed out as maybe a problem for men to deal with. And non-violent rapists- date-rapers, etc etc etc, are sometimes not even condemned at all.

Okay, that was a very confused paragraph, but there are a couple of things in there that I think are important, so let me just try again.

*rape is a type of violence committed almost exclusively by men.

*yet most, if not all, of our efforts towards preventing rape focus around telling women what to do, where to go, and how to behave.

*by demonising violent rapists and excluding them from the male population, society implicitly absolves the wider male community- this man X would not do this, it's only these men Y. this is not unique to rape, it happens with other types of violence as well and it's just as bad then but I think it is most dramatic in violent rape and paedophilia. The demonising needs to be against the kind of society that does not talk to men about preventing rape by men, but talks to women about preventing rape by men.

*non-violent rape- god that's a bad pair of words, there's no such thing, but I mean date rape, taking advantage and pushing too hard and stuff- is not condemned and is occasionally applauded, yay guy X, you got some, hahaha the drunk slut haha. *shrug* And I think that is very much a male community thing.

Um. Yeah. Dunno how that goes, and I think to some extent I'm preaching to the choir- you did say you agreed with most of the OP- I'm just trying to sort some ideas out, OK? :P

I see where you're coming from now, and I realise now what I said sounded a bit confused. I do get that that's the position the OP was trying to take, too, but it doesn't stop me taking issue with how simplistic and knee-jerk it came off as to me. Yes, we need to change the culture around what people think of rape, but would it hurt some people not to act like banshees all the time? lol

I hate the attitude that dimisses anyone who really believes in what they're talking about. I think the whole point of this was to be radical and sometimes that's what you have to be, when you're challenging something that is a totally unquestioned part of society. Its point is in its shock value and while therefore it's not 100% "correct" or whatever, that's not the

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I hate the attitude that dimisses anyone who really believes in what they're talking about. I think the whole <i>point</i> of this was to be radical and sometimes that's what you have to be, when you're challenging something that is a totally unquestioned part of society. Its point is in its shock value and while therefore it's not 100% "correct" or whatever, that's not the <i?point.</i>

I've grown up in a house of pedants. My dad got offended at the Simpsons because Grandpa made a mangle of history in one of his deluded stories!! For fucks sake.

And I'm not dismissing any people, just the fact that any time someone expresses an opinion in our society, it seems like it's 99%rage and only 1% substance.

(even when I do it because I know I do. I never said I wasn't a hypocrite!)

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