(no subject)

[labellementeuse]

Re: Supernatural 2x13.

Dear world,

hey, so apparently you don't know that much about atheists. (Which, by the way, is what Dean is. I mean, I know you have him calling himself a sceptic and all, but he's straightforwardly atheist to me. For most of this episode, anyway.) I'd just like to let you know, world, that we're not all sad, and gloomy, and lonely, and drowning in evil. You know? And hey - it's okay to be atheist. You know this religious tolerance we're all supposed to have - I know a lot of atheists work quite hard at it. But if Dean had been religious, like, Muslim or Jewish or Hindu or even, probably, pagan, I bet you you would never have picked the ending you did.

So why is it okay to take away what makes an atheist, an atheist?

No fucking love,
Me.

PS: But I did like that version of Knockin' on Heaven's Door. (Um, and if anyone has it... I'd love a copy. I can swap for my version? This is the first song on SPN to already be on heavy rotation on my music players, I'm so proud. :P)

Comments

[keymash.livejournal.com]

Here. (http://www.sendspace.com/file/xe69z0)

[labellementeuse.livejournal.com]

You're a doll. <3

my .2 cents.

[angry-in-pink.livejournal.com]

Hey, I watched that last night. Interesting. Hmmm. I'd watch it if there was nothing else on but...I don't know. They have so many issues. And are insanely pretty. If I wanted to spend time with insanely pretty boys with issues, I'd go back to my Queer Youth Hui.

*Sigh*

I think I've missed the point, a little, of that show.

The atheist thing? Yeah, that would annoy me too. Except I'm not an atheist, but I feel that everyone deserves to be portrayed fairly on TV. Even religous fundementalists.

Re: my .2 cents.

[labellementeuse.livejournal.com]

But they're so pretty. *pets them* And it actually gets better. :P

Ditto.

[sixth-light.livejournal.com]

Americans (especially American TV) are often dumb about atheists. Not much to be done, unfortunately. Unless they took the horrific step of doing stuff like electing them to public office. Which, you know, not happening. (I heard Bill Bryson on the radio with Kim Hill this morning admitting to being an atheist, though. Huzzah!)

[nzlemming.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but he lives in England so, to most Americans, he can be safely classified as eccentric

[cocombat.livejournal.com]

Awww.
When I read your post I was all - that sucks!

But I hadn't seen the episode yet, so, sat back for a bit, and after watching it, and some thinking about the SPN verse, and well, I don't see it as quite like that.

For starters, we're talking about SPN 'verse, not real life. They have ghosts, monsters, vampires, demons. More importantly, they appear to be working from a Zorostrian/Christian worldview, which does have the whole duality thing, and vaguely ceremonial magick leanings (e.g. and excuse me while I get geeky, the Vanir in Scarecrow, which seemed more like a created Egregore, which is a more advanced form of a created spirit or Servitor like Mordecai from Hell House - and especially as they destroyed it by destroying it's sigil or 'tree', rather than an actual pagan deity). Dean already believes in demons, and possibly hell.
His response to the angel thing, initially, did seem a little ridiculous considering until recently, they'd never personally encountered demons either, and especially, didn't believe in vampires - he seemed more sceptical than he would have been of any other random supernatural being, which in part, seemed like a reaction against his mother's death.
In any case, with the aforementioned belief in demons etc, he wouldn't be an atheist in the same sense as we would use.

But anyway, on a completely different tack, I don't think we can take what Dean said as 'gospel' (I couldn't help it!) as, we only hear Dean's response as a reaction to Sam's despair.
While the whole impaling thing was a pretty random 'coincidence', and may have been enough to tip things, given the context, I have to ask myself, given my characterisation of Dean, and how depressed Sam was, would Dean say, flat out lie to his brother if he thought it would give him hope? Hmmm. Maaaybe.
And if he didn't have to lie, just maybe, stretch it little? (he only said "Maybe, God's will?" he never actually says it was). Hell yeah.
I think, given Sam's whole, I'm doomed, I'm doomed again thing, Dean would have said that regardless of what he really believed about the event.

[labellementeuse.livejournal.com]

In any case, with the aforementioned belief in demons etc, he wouldn't be an atheist in the same sense as we would use.

I knew someone would bring that up! But, hah, I disagree. Dean doesn't believe in demons, he knows they exist in the same way I know kittens exist, or dogs, or even animals that I haven't seen myself, like narwhals. Demons Dean hasn't personally experienced are like narwhals to me. Angels and divine beings are, IMO, a fundamentally different proposition to demons, particularly if you don't have a desperate need to believe in balance or redemption- which Sam does (the latter), and Dean explicitly does not (the former).

However, you could be right about Dean saying that to give Sam something. I don't think it was really presented that way, but you could be right and I'd prefer that - as an atheist, if an amazing coincidence happens, I'm like, wow, that's an amazing coincidence, not wow, that's GOD'S WILL. Dean seems to be more like, wow, that's demonic! Which is a little different again, but...

[cocombat.livejournal.com]

he knows they exist in the same way I know kittens exist, or dogs, or even animals that I haven't seen myself, like narwhals.

Hmmm, having read about Rakhasas, Vampires, and Demons is not quite the same as having read about Narwhals, and yet Dean was willing to go with the assumption that they all existed, even before he had any proof.
Going by his initial emotional outburst, that he was less open to the speculative existence of some supernatural creature called an 'Angel' than any of the other things they've encountered, does kind of speak more of his own issues of disillusionment, than of his scepticism.
It doesn't speak too harshly though, because he still didn't let his emotional reaction (ie, there's no such thing as a good supernatural being!) get in the way of the case. Sam was more deluded. I'm taking that as a given.
;)

Angels and divine beings are, IMO, a fundamentally different proposition to demons

Huh, really? Why? Within the context of SPN, and hmmm, ok, probably on a wider context, I view Angels as pretty much the same kind of creature as Demons. What's the difference between the two, for you?
How do you define a divine being? (And an infernal one?)

Speculatively though, SPN has kind of left itself waaay open in one way (possibly, far too open - I see big plot holes here :P), given that with the existence of Tulpas etc, there's no reason that anything people believe in strongly enough shouldn't exist (cue the santa comment - although, I guess there's no reason even a Tulpa Santa would actually be able to come up with the goods?). People just tend to imagine monsters under the bed more concretely.

Oh, and this is all only if you're interested in discussing it of course!
Just to be clear, I don't actually believe in either angels or demons, a dualist worldview, or the existence of an afterlife - this is all fictional brain exercises.
;)

[labellementeuse.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, having read about Rakhasas, Vampires, and Demons is not quite the same as having read about Narwhals, and yet Dean was willing to go with the assumption that they all existed, even before he had any proof.

I disagree. It's not the same for me, in this universe, but I think it is the same for Dean, in his universe. I believe in narwhals because... okay, in a really sceptic mood, I don't, but generally, I believe in them because I've seen photos and everyone knows they exist, they're not presented by my peer group as something that is in doubt. Possibly global warming is a better example, because the people I respect (the vast majority of the scientific community) think it is happening. For Dean, his peer group - hunters, mostly his father, actually - know that these things exist even if Dean hasn't seen evidence himself, and they probably do have some evidence. CF vampires - hunters told Dean they didn't exist, and he hadn't seen evidence of them, so he "knew" that vampires did not exist.

Dean knows demons exist because 1. He believes that they do, 2. They really do, and 3. His belief is justified - he has good reasons to believe that they do, like past experience and evidence of others. (Whether that's epistemically good reasoning... probably not, but I SO don't care right know. :P) Whereas angels and a good force... he doesn't have a good reason to believe in them, because he doesn't have evidence or whatever - he has the reverse, sort of. I characterise Dean as an atheist not only because when it comes to all that kind of stuff he's not willing to believe without evidence - an agnostic also has that trait. I think he's an atheist because forget evidence, he does not believe in God. He's not even, really, for most of this episode, saying he doesn't believe in God because he hasn't seen evidence - he's saying, he doesn't believe in God, and that's supported for him by not seeing evidence.

Going by his initial emotional outburst, that he was less open to the speculative existence of some supernatural creature called an 'Angel' than any of the other things they've encountered, does kind of speak more of his own issues of disillusionment, than of his scepticism.

I agree. I do think Dean is kind of a sceptic though - Hell House? He's just willing to believe more than average jane or joe because he has a wider frame of reference.

Huh, really? Why? Within the context of SPN, and hmmm, ok, probably on a wider context, I view Angels as pretty much the same kind of creature as Demons. What's the difference between the two, for you?

I probably spoke a little strongly - obviously I believe in neither. I was trying to disassociate myself from that really dualist worldview that Sam was espousing - there are all these demons, so there must be angels/a supernaturally good force. Your average ghosty demon or monster is different from an angel because it's disassociated with religion and the divine. True demons, like Celine Demon and (for want of a better name) Meg, are a somewhat different kettle of fish because of exorcisms. At that point I'm willing to go the more Buffyesque route of having parallel hell dimensions where demons maybe go, or something. (If you want a plot hole, IMO that is a plot hole! especially since John's soul is apparently there - but I think you have to accept some kind of nonphysical soul or soul like thing because of ghosts in this universe.)

What I was really trying to say was that I didn't think the presence of demons necessitated the presence of angels and a god - or, for that matter, a satan.

Speculatively though, SPN has kind of left itself waaay open in one way (possibly, far too open - I see big plot holes here :P), given that with the existence of Tulpas etc, there's no reason that anything people believe in strongly enough shouldn't exist.

I thought they covered their asses with that because of the whole mysterious Tibetan (?) symbol painted on the wall, which turned the belief/focused it into a ritual. It doesn't just happen with ordinary things, which is why Sam puts down the Santa comment (although, heh, it could just be that we're not good people. :P)

Oh, me either. :D