worryingly jolly batman

thank you. :)

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rewihendrix.livejournal.com

...i'm sorry but i really disagree with you. i'm not saying that sexism doesn't still exist, but i don't think that there are that many women who act like you describe in that huge sentence. What's the problem with getting their boyfriends to fix their computer? only someone who is insecure themselves would have a problem with that, a confident women wouldn't feel degraded by asking her boyfriend to fix her computer. Lot's of people don't speak up when they feel uncomfortable about anything, just like the media portrayal of pretty much everything is a problem.

"(and that's O.K., because mothers aren't productive and don't deserve to be paid)", what, are you saying that mothers should be paid seperately on top of their maternity leave? Because that's just ridiculous. If any payment should be done, it should be to the mother and the spouse, because each partner has equal rights to the spouse's pay. Or are you saying that women who choose to be full time mothers rather than go back to work should be paid?

The very fact that you're attacking women with that paragraph is almost like you're saying it's women's problem, not society's problem, and that is sexist.

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ugh, way to miss the point. I do not want to fight about this in my own LJ, in my own space: this is not up for discussion, at all, in any way, I am not even going to.

in your last sentence, though: sorry, but this is why you should have kept taking english class, because you fail at reading comprehension. this post is not addressed to men or society, it is addressed to women, to the very many women of my personal acquaintance, who are content to sit and let injustice pass them by, who choose not to act, who kid themselves into thinking that everything is just fine. this post is not about men, it is not about the patriarchy, it is about women and what I see as a real problem with young women today. I am not saying sexism is women's problem, I am saying that women who don't think sexism still exists are part of the problem and they grieve me terribly.

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rewihendrix.livejournal.com

don't patronize me. I didn't say anything about men, why the hell do you think i made my comment about you talking to women like that? I know you're addressing women, and i don't think there are many women who don't think sexism exists.

ANd also, don't make comments if you don't want it to be discussed.

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"The very fact that you're attacking women with that paragraph is almost like you're saying it's women's problem, not society's problem, and that is sexist."

- I was not attacking women, I was addressing them, and
- everyone contributes to sexism. Women's attitudes towards feminism are a real concern for me.

I strenuously object to you calling me sexist for the identification of a problem that I think about all the time, that is a real issue for feminism today.

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claystarling.livejournal.com

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I also disagree with you. I would consider myself a feminist, but I think that certain members of that particular group exaggerate things and make up problems that just don't exist. An example would be the "WE NEED MORE WOMEN IN SCIENCE AND ENGINEERING!" mentality that we have in Canada, because clearly, women do not comprise 95% of the student population in Science and Engineering, and this is somehow a problem (because women dominate in science with 60% of the student population, and there's about 25% women in engineering).

What's wrong with getting my boyfriend to fix my computer? I don't know how to fix it, and it's cheaper to ask him to do it. Furthermore, it's as if you're saying that it's somehow wrong that I DON'T know how to fix my computer. Is it wrong when my boyfriend asks me for help with math and essays?

Both men and women don't speak up when they feel uncomfortable with something, and personally, I think people do it to avoid problems. Kind of like how I fake that I'm an idiot so stupid people won't beg me for tutoring and help. I call it being "nicely useless." As for media portrayal of women? More like media portrayal of LIFE is wrong and problematic.

I agree with you on some points, but I think that in many cases you're making a problem out of something that's not a problem.

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eavanmoore.livejournal.com

25% women in engineering sounds like a problem to me. What I've read in the US is that female undergraduate students are doing just fine in science and engineering, but they have more problems than their male classmates in getting and keeping jobs after they graduate.

Engineering, of course, is on my mind after this post (http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/10/03/sexism-in-our-everyday-professional-lives/).

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I think that's a problem, but I don't think that only having 25% women in engineering is INHERENTLY a problem.

I mean, I see problems around it being more like "Are women not comfortable enough to go for an engineering degree, because they're taught that it's for boys?" being a problem, and I see problems if they're just as well trained but can't get jobs, but I don't think there's actually an inherent problem with only having 25% women in Engineering.

Engineering, like being a doctor, is about being a professional and being accountable. If there are women in there to make it 50-50, but 25% of them don't really want to be there, then I think that's a bigger problem. Engineers build our cities and so on; frankly, if they're not into it, I think there's a risk that they'll build something, which will collapse and kill people. If the split is perfect 50-50, and all those people WANT TO BE IN THAT PROGRAM, then great! If not, there's a problem, and this applies to both male and female engineers.

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eavanmoore.livejournal.com

I agree that it's not inherently a bad thing to ask a guy to fix your computer. I wouldn't go to a male friend/boy friend because he was male, but as a female I don't feel bad about taking my computer to the help desk. There's too much to learn, it's just not worth it to me.

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I've been in programming for a little while and I would politely like to suggest that only 25% women in a field is actually pretty major.

I work in a reasonably balanced environment, but going to a conference with 90% guys where the vendor thought it was appropriate to employ waitresses in bikinis at their function(while at the same time time offering free alcohol...sooo not a good result), where every second speaker seemedto use anecdotes about their technologically illiterate wives really gave me pause.

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Like I've stated before, I think that it's much worse to force women who don't want to be in a discipline to be in it just to even it out. Especially in engineering, such a mentality could be potentially dangerous. If there are 25% women there, at least those 25% want to be there. I do not want my buildings to be built by a mind that's only half there.

With the amount of outreach (particularly towards women) done by the Faculty of Engineering, I'd like to politely suggest that perhaps there are only 25% women in that faculty because only that 25% want to be there.

As for why only 25% of women want to be there? I would consider that an issue.

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What do you mean by force?

I mean are you suggesting that people want to frog march women into class each day?

I honestly don't know what the solution is but I know that there were a lot of talented women in my classes at uni who enjoyed programming but have gravitated towards the more people intensive less hardcore programming jobs and I know that the industry has lost out.

P.s. the vendor in the above example is an incredibly well known software firm whose product you are in all probability using right now...

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Sometimes, it seems like those people want to do just that. --''

I think the solution starts at home, in a family. For example, psychology studies have shown that parents are more likely to explain science exhibits to their sons rather than their daughters because they believe that their daughters aren't as interested even when it is shown that their daughters are equally apt and interested as their sons.

I simply don't believe that making a fuss and saying that things are unfair really helps anything. We all know it isn't. For me, change starts with what I, as a person, DO, rather than say.

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I believe making a fuss is about the only way you're going to change some of the less welcoming attributes.

At the very least you get people to stop and think about the stupid things they say.

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Word to that. People have to be aware.

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I simply don't believe that making a fuss and saying that things are unfair really helps anything. We all know it isn't.

See, for me, in my experience, that is totally untrue. Far from seing women make a fuss, I see women minimalise unfairness or outright deny that it exists. "It's not more difficult to be a woman in computer science: women just don't like it/aren't apt in that field/are naturally more interested in the arts."

"There aren't any problems in the workplace anymore; women just get paid less because they take more time off/are less productive/are less career oriented than men."

"Women are just less aggressive than men, so of course they don't get ahead in business. And they aren't less agressive because of socialisation, it's all in the genes!"

It's crap and I'm sick of it, and that's why I make noises about things being unfair, and that's why I think it's important to shout about feminism from the rooftops and encourage girls in Engineering, because people aren't aware about it and they do deny it, women included, women especially.

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I actually think that in many respects, NOW it's almost as damaging to scream from the rooftops about it. It used to be effective.

From what I've seen, I think that feminists have screamed about it for so long and so hard that people just don't listen any more. They've heard it all before, and some don't believe it anyway. The rest know that it's unfair, but have heard it for so long that the speech is actually annoying.

When I see women who say things like what you've used as examples above, I want to strangle them. When I see women who scream about how things are unfair, I kind of want to strangle them too.

Personally, I think that feminism would make a better stand by getting involved and doing, rather than mainly saying. I'm involved in outreach and stuff, and I think that it's more important to SHOW people what you're capable off than to just say it. It's different; people have heard, but they just haven't SEEN.

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I can't reply to this at all because it made me very, very angry. But feminism, in fact, does get involved in doing. Unfortunately, feminism can't force men and women not to be sexist. You can't act in ways that make your professor or your employer or your coworker or your customers less sexist. Sometimes, though, you can point out to them that they're being sexist, or their superiors, and then something happens. Sitting around saying nothing because it'll just piss people off, or whatever, is exactly the wrond attitude.

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I keep comparing your statement "I think that certain members of that particular group exaggerate things and make up problems that just don't exist." with your repeated statements about women being forced into fields like Engineering and Science and thinking, wow, and I'm the one making up a problem that doesn't exist?

anna_en_route has articulated this quite well already, but I want to respond to your comments which essentially say, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with having only 25% women in a certain field, it's only a problem when parents/society act to ensure that. The thing is, even as society offers scholarships and encouragement for women in engineering - and my university has the biggest engineering school in the country and there definitely is some of that - it simultaneously tells girls (much more subtly) that they're not good at geometry and spatial skills, that they like English and the Arts subjects more, that Engineering is for boys - it's a simple as giving boys Legos and girls dolls, as mundane, as insidious as the example you gave about science experiments. Scholarships and encouragement exist to counteract this, and the energy to do that is not a waste of time and it most certainly does not amount to forcing women into a field.

I am having trouble reconciling your acknowledgement that social pressures ecist to force women out of these fields, with your resistance to admit that that is a problem that needs discussing, a problem that needs exposure.

In re: media portrayals of everything being sucky, and everyone not speaking up when they're uncomfortable. Yes, this is absolutely true. That doesn't make it false in the particular cases I'm speaking about. For example, both men and women are portrayed unrealistically in the media; men are socialised into certain roles, just like women are; men are held to an unreasonable standard of beauty. On the other hand, men's standards of beauty involve being fit and strong; women's standards involve being skinny and pretty. The jobs men are socialised into (doctors and pilots) just happen to be more prestigious and better-paid than the jobs women are socialised into (nurses and air hostesses.) Of course that doesn't mean it's not difficult for men who want to be air hostesses or nurses. But it is harder to get the training to be a doctor or a pilot (still one of the most male-dominated roles) than it is to be a nurse or an air hostess.

And even when men are air hostesses/stewards, they're held to a different standard than their women co-workers, who are required to wear make up and present a certain standard of beauty beyond being clean-shaven and tidy.

Finally the boys and computers argument was an example. Yes, it's fine on a individual basis for you to go to your boyfriend. I go to my boy friends all the time. It's a different thing when every woman is going to boys to ask for help. (The bias towards women being educated in terms of english etc does indeed exist, as you point out, and it is my opinion that high-school education really fails boys in this respect. I am hugely concerned by this. Just because I didn't address it in this post - which is about something else entirely - doesn't mean I'm not aware of it or not interested in it.)

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And even when men are air hostesses/stewards, they're held to a different standard than their women co-workers, who are required to wear make up and present a certain standard of beauty beyond being clean-shaven and tidy.

On the other hand, in office environments, men are expected to wear long sleeved shirts and ties, while women are usually allowed to wear most things as long as they're tidy and not too revealing.

Not that this invalidates your broader point. Just sayin'.

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If I had to choose between spending an hour on makeup/hair and wearing a tie it seems like a pretty easy decision (as it is I'm a code monkey so I don't have to make that choice)

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Well, I strongly detest ties and feel fairly casual about makeup, but that's just me. But it's worth noting that office workers outnumber stewardesses and other makeup-compulsory occupations many to one.

But before I seem like I'm using this narrow example to claim patriarchy doesn't exist, I'll say I'm not - in fact this is an example of where men, mostly lower class men, lose out from patriarchy, since they're required to enforce it (since the suit-and-tie is the very image of the patriarch) without benefiting from it.

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Well, I strongly detest ties and feel fairly casual about makeup

I have worn both ties and make-up on a daily basis, and I can assure you that ties are quicker and more convenient than make-up - you may detest the symbolism of the tie, but at the end of the day it's about as symbolic as make-up and much, much less of a hassle.

Anyway, I don't disagree with you (or you with me) in any particular sense, so this is really quibbling.

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Quibbling it may be but I try to never let an opportunity to complain about office dress policy pass me by.

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Watch women walking to work in sneakers and then changing into uncomfortable high heels, at least ties don't hurt at the end of the day

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True, but I don't know of many workplaces which require women to wear high heels, but requiring ties is extremely common.

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eavanmoore.livejournal.com

That first paragraph could have been written now. This gives me hope for our generation.

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Me, too. ♥

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angry-in-pink.livejournal.com

Right on! I don't agree that you're making problems were none exist; these are very real issues that get swept under the rug. And the 'feminist' thing annoys me. Show some respect for the women who got you the vote, kthanks.

Media representation of women really gets my hackles up. Ever notice that guys can be on the 'homely' side but less than pretty girls get reglagated to comic relief (NOT talking about Ugly Betty here, as she's even kinda pretty with the glasses and braces.)The whole 'makover' show concept. Beauty Pagents (Why are we still doing this crap?)

Another issue:
1) fashion industry. Teaches women to consume, consume, consume. Tells them to be happy they have to be thin, wear make up and have perfect skin.

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Ugh, exactly. to everything you said.

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bad-mushroom.livejournal.com

I agree that it's really sad that so many women today think that all of those things aren't their problem, but I will admit that I shy away from the word feminism and always have, and probably will continue to shy away from it. But that's just my personal preference.

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Um... but why? Can you articulate why? Because that's what I struggle with and think is a problem - young women being afraid of being labelled feminist like it's synonymous with I-don't-know-what.

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bad-mushroom.livejournal.com

I'm not afraid of being a feminist, I'm just not comfortable with the associations that I make and other people make with that word-- ie that women are better than men, somehow, to make up for the oppression that women have endured. I don't think that helps anyone. And er, there's something else that bothers me about the term...and something like separating feminists from normal people...but my thoughts aren't quite coherent about that yet.

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