worryingly jolly batman

Anyone in particular we should be voting for?

From:

Whoever/whichever party has policies that you feel will be ultimately the most beneficial to the country and/or yourself.

From:

Man, what does a guy got to do to get a good polemic/flamewar started these days?

I'll try again in November.

From:

kitsunerei88

Seeing as I'm feeling just slightly angry for political reasons, and this is a political post, and you probably have similar leanings that I do . . .

How do you deal with Conservatives? 'Cause there's this guy I lived with in res last year, and he keeps posting stuff on facebook which basically always says "Conservatives are amazing, Liberals suck" (Conservatives are right-wing - Liberals are centre-left) . . . And I REALLY REALLY WANT TO STRANGLE HIM.

The latest political drama in Canada is the feud between our federal finance minister, who wants to cut corporate taxes. Our Federal government in Conservative, but Ontario's provincial government is Liberal, and we just said "Up yours, because that will cut five billion dollars from education."

From:

Hmmm. Subtlety is clearly overrated. Let me try again.

National has no policies, nyah nyah nyah. Vote Labour, or succumb to blandness! (Lesbian Cabal Now Contains Real Lesbians, Winston Peters Not Included.)

From:

Lesbian Cabal has contained Real Lesbians since at least 1993.

But, to be slightly more substantial, Greens?

From:

It's the juxtaposition of "substantial" and "Greens" that gets me laughin'!

From:

Not out lesbians, as far as I am aware. I thought Maryan Street was the only Real (Out) Lesbian knocking around the Labour side of Parliament at the moment?

Greens...what?

From:

I don't deal with them. I ignore them whenever possible, and when I can't ignore them I change the subject. I used to try to argue with them, and in certain forums I still will, but in terms of one-on-one conversation it's begun to be too much energy, too frustrating, and too distressing. I always come away from conversations furious, upset, and feeling like I haven't achieved a lot, so I've concluded it's a waste of my time. YMMV!

Well, hey, at least you have provincial gvt. to fight with the feds on your behalf! If our tories get in this election I... don't know what I'll do.

From:

You know, until quite recently I assumed that you were a Green supporter. Just goes to show, political profiling is only correct 75% of the time.

From:

If we're talking about Out Lesbians you're absolutely right. I have it on pretty excellent authority that certain other senior Labour Ministers are also of the Sapphic persuasion, but I don't want to go into details because, while seeing people in the closet is sad, it's not my job to out them, and such speculation is too often the domain of the Right Wing internet gutter. Not that I can't think of at least one severely prominent closet door in the Tory caucus either.

You know, I don't want to start a whole 'this Party is better than that Party' thing, but I think you'll find that the potential for losing votes to the Greens is something that Labour's going to have to deal with as long as there is a Green party. Not to say anything about the respective merits of either party.

From:

Ah, yes, I am aware of those particular closet doors, on both sides of the House. Wellington is a small and incestuously gossipy city in that regard. Until such time as the parties involved may choose to out themselves, though, I'm not gonna count them. As you say, it's not our job to out anyone.

You're absolutely right re: the Greens. Mostly because they're far left where Labour is centre-left, meaning centre-leaning compromises on Labour's part _will_ drive some people to the Greens. It's almost happened to me a few times, but then someone brings up GE and I back off, mostly because while I strongly uphold the need for caution, certain members of the Greens *coughSueKedgelycough* are practically Luddite in that regard, and as a biology student I just can't stand that. Plus, as a minority party the Greens are free to advance some policies that Labour cannot yet or will not initially endorse (see: the repeal of Section 59) which is really useful.

From:

I think many Greens would not appreciate being described as Left, and the party's main appeal does rest in large part on a philosophy that rejects the Left/Right divide as outdated.

I agree with you re: GE, but if you can forgive Labour for flogging Telecom and Air New Zealand, do you think you could ever find it in your heart to forgive the Greens for that?

From:

Well, hey, at least you have provincial gvt. to fight with the feds on your behalf!

Of course, at times it's conservative state governments stonewalling liberal central government. In the USA, 'state's rights' is a perennial rallying cry of the Right. Whether it would be in New Zealand is anybody's guess, but it's worth considering.

From:

I agree with many of their policies, but I believe they're unconscionable ignorant about science and would be an unsustainable government. In a nutshell.

Also, my parents are dyed-in-the-wool volunteer-pamphlet-handerouters on-their-suburb's-branch-of-the-electorate redredred Labour supporters. They hold fundraising dinners for Annette King every year (with fun guest speakers like Jonathan Hunt and Michael Cullen!) My Dad goes to their conferences. They're so committed, when they have problems with the government (for example, the recent-ish report of a few years ago that indicated circumstances of people in poverty may have worsened under this government) they actually *go through proper channels* in an attempt to indicate their distress to the party. I would probably be disowned.

From:

I'm familiar with the dilemma, and I'm not seriously contemplating the pros and cons of a state system. ;)

From:

I appreciate their finer feelings on the matter, but their economic and social policies make them attractive to people who want a more left-wing government than Labour (such as, indeed, myself.) It's all very well to scream "we're not a left-wing party" but broadly pro-taxation, multiculturalist, and anti-social-conservatism policies are, well, left wing markers. Right-wing social and economic policies can certainly be combined with environmentalism, but the Green Party as-is is not exemplary of that to me.

in re: telescum, AirNZ, GE: but it's not just GE, it's almost *every* environmentalist position they take. It's not like there aren't sound scientific reasons to be environmentalist, but I never hear them from the Greens, and I do hear a *lot* of faffing around.

From:

I see what you mean, and I guess I agree that while it's theoretically possible for environmentalism to co-exist with free market ethics and for Green parties to co-operate with non-Left parties, I've yet to see it happen. Then again, if the Green movement truly is a political movement on par with conservatism and social democracy, it's in its early days.

But looking at the Greens in isolation, to me too many of the Green's policies show a casual disregard for the material wellbeing of the working class to really classify them as a Leftist party. Ironically, when the Greens proclaim themselves not to be a party of the Left it is, I presume, self-congratulation, but when I agree with them it's a critique.

As an aside I'm not sure that being multiculturalist and anti social-conservatism are hallmarks of the Left. Unless you consider ACT partly Leftist.

From:

blythely.livejournal.com

IAWTC about the Greens x100000000.

Sadly. My dream is an efficient, evidence-based political party with the long view.

From:

I know we've kind of covered this before (the electromagnetic radiation argument in particular). On the one hand, I agree that at times the Greens seem technophobic. On the other hand, at times they seem too technophilic, or rather sciento-philic (or whatever) - by which I mean excessively deferential to the scientific community when it comes to framing policy.

A lot of people say they want political parties that are more responsive to scientific arguments, but I'm not aware of Physics or Biochemistry having a lot to offer on the issue of, say, access to housing, or provision of healthcare, any more than Neoliberal Capitalist theory or Post-Marxist thought have anything to say about the formation of black holes or the manipulation of enzymes.

From:

It's a good point about the Green movement still being young. And naturally, your sentiments and mine wrt: Leftism, critiques, and compliments are similar (and it's funny because there's so much about the left that even I don't like, stuff that's potentially exactly what they're talking about, which they don't appear to be able to articulate clearly. If, for example, they found themselves suddenly able to eloquently express the fact that they oppose antilibertarian laws like controls on smoking, drinking, and other drugs - at least they'd have made a point.)

I'm sorry, when I meant Left I was referring specifically to our "new left" not... um, the actual meaning of left wing. Rather some of the hallmarks of NZ left wing liberalism. However, ACT is not a party that is anti social conservatism and I wish people would stop saying that they were. Some members of the ACT party are against social conservatism and have commendable voting record on these issues. However, ACT's willingness to tolerate a deputy leader like Muriel Newman, and their unwillingness to go to bat in support of controversial bills like prostitution law reform and the civil union act, clearly demonstrates to me that social concerns are not important to ACT. Frankly, in a party that calls itself libertarian, that really pisses me off.

From:

*sigh* Keep dreaming, I'm afraid!

From:

And if the Greens ran on a platform of access to housing, or provision of healthcare, that would be relevant. But since they run on an environmentalist platform, they *should* be responsive to science and they *should* be responsive to the best kinds of scientific philosophy. Whereas I'm not convinced they could describe the scientific method.

Of course, we've talked before about how the parts of the Greens' policies that are most important to both of us seem to be least important to the Greens anyway, so.

From:

And if the Greens ran on a platform of access to housing, or provision of healthcare, that would be relevant.

I think a lot of Greens would be quite shocked to hear you say that. Not necessarily disagreeing, but the idea that they are a 'single issue party' is something Green MPs often enthusiastically disclaim.

Edited Date: 2008-03-25 08:14 pm (UTC)

From:

It's a good point about the Green movement still being young.

I was being charitable and assuming that the Green movement is broadly on par with socialism or market capitalism, of course. I'm not entirely certain.

However, ACT is not a party that is anti social conservatism and I wish people would stop saying that they were.

Well, it's obviously more complicated than that, but on many occassions ACT has taken more socially liberal stances than Labour (for instance, the recent ban on BZP pills). ACT is the main inheritor of the Lange Labour government, and that was a government that was staunchly socially liberal and arguably did more to enact legislation giving force to that liberalism than any other post-war government. OTOH, I see your point about the party's inability to support (or for that matter to oppose) the Civil Union Bill, which is the most iconic (if not necessarily the most substantive) test of social liberalism in the 21st century within the New Zealand political context. ACT has, in common with most of the smaller parties (and against all logic, when you think about it), often been quite schizophrenic in its ideology. But on balance I think that ACT would rank third, after the Greens and Labour. It's certainly less socially conservative than National.

From: