worryingly jolly batman

Heheh that's as may be, but it is not MY chocolate cake. >:D

While I agree that in terms of pure grammar, the quality of writing can be assessed, that's like saying that the only thing that's important about writing is the grammar, spelling and punctuation- nothing that breaks these rules can ever be good. Two things about that: 1. ee cummings and 2. Fandom and fanfic is stuff that's written for pleasure. While maybe you can say that certain fanfic is badly written, is it our place to judge? Since fandom is something people participate in for pleasure, then isn't any fic that gives people pleasure good fanfic?

From:

Hmmm. Am very torn here.

On the one hand, I am a firm believer in tolerance, different strokes for different folks, etcetera.

On the other hand...some things can't be tolerated. I mean, some people really do enjoy murdering others. And some people are genuinely sexually attracted to children. This doesn't mean we tolerate serial killing or paedophilia. So there are limits to tolerance, and I think those have to be measured by hurt: if doing something hurts others, then, generally, you shouldn't tolerate it. (Of course there are cases...obviously lots of German soldiers in WWII were killed and it hurt their families lots. Yet it's entirely arguable that not killing them would have led to a totally intolerable situation. So the harm rule isn't all-encompassing.)

In terms of fan writing, I'm agreeing with

miriamus - the primary point of writing is to communicate, and badfic fails to communicate, or communicate well. Writing is a skill. It can be improved. God knows mine has since I started - I've been through the Mary Sue phase, and the simply bad writing phase, and (I think) grown out of it. (Of course, I was always a spelling and grammar nazi, but that doesn't make for good writing by itself.)

Badfic can get better. Not trying is evidence of, well, laziness. Maybe writers are happy, but...the fact is that I believe every writer can improve, if they want to. It's not bad per se, just sloppy. And for other writers who really care about writing well, and communicating to the best of their ability - it's intolerable to see that sloppiness. For people who care about the characters, to see them badly characterised is intolerable because the story purports to be a something it isn't - a true representation of them. And maybe it isn't fair, but in fanfiction we set our own little goals and rules - to try and create other portions and interpretations of a world. When someone claims to be doing that, and does it badly, and people praise them for it...oh, I suppose it isn't fair. I just do believe that There Should Be Standards.

Added to which, I don't think it's entirely fair to compare it to racism. People just are Jewish, black, gay, whatever. To paraphrase someone or other, I think, there are no bad writers; just careless ones. And intolerance of people not trying to do their best is, I think, fair. If you don't care enough to...don't pretend to.

From:

But if they show no desire to improve their fic- if they're happy with it just the way it is, and so are their readers- who are we to say "Well, you might be having fun, and your readers might be having fun, but THAT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH because you're not meeting my personal rule for fic"?

I don't think intolerance of someone not trying to do their best is fair. Because you know, everyone has different ideas of what "best" is. You think your best, school-wise, is to kill yourself studying for every fucking thing. I don't think that's my best. What, that gives you the right to be intolerant of me for not studying for eight hours a day? Of course it doesn't. If people are happy the way they are- and of course this excludes anything which harms or discriminates against other people- it's not fair to be intolerant.

Of course, you can argue that badfic is guilty of perpetuating unutterable harm to both the English language and to people who are learning it. ;) But that's the job of schools, not you and me, to judge on. If someone wants to do better, they'll get a beta themselves or they'll solicit constructive critism (which most authors do.) But we don't get to flame them (although sometimes, out of sheer horror and grammar nazi pain, we can leave a comment expressing this. ;))

From:

Intolerance means what, precisely?

Issuing a judgement? Enforcing an action on the other author? Commenting to friends?

In order to decide how I felt, I put it against how I see tolerance. I think a very important part of tolerance is that you do not have to agree with or endorse what you are tolerating. Otherwise it woudl be acceptance.

Which means I see intolerence as enforcing a disagreement. So, if a read a bad story and said I thought the story was bad, I am not being intolerant. If I attempted to have the story removed, I am.

If I mentioned ways in which the story was, to me, bad I am still being tolerant of its existance, am I not?

From:

Oh, totally. But criticising something is different from ranting/raving etc etc of it.

Actually, I also think we should strive for acceptance- not to endorse fic, but to accept that even badfic has its place. You can choose not to like it, just as one can choose not to indulge in gay sex, but I guess I think we should accept it.

The only really good argument against not accepting badfic is its crimes on the English language, which are many and varied. >.

From:

And some people are genuinely sexually attracted to children. This doesn't mean we tolerate serial killing or paedophilia.

Okay, this could be dangerous, but...

I saw an article recently which basically postulated that paedophilia is simply another continuum on the sexuality theme (to crib from bro'town). Especially so given the emphasis on youth in many cultures, including marriages at very young ages.

And it occurs to me that the harm part of your equation is true, if the child is used this manner it is clearly harmful. But what of someone who had these feelings but never once acted in any inappropriate way around children? If they admitted their feelings, but all the evidence seemed to be they were controlling themselves, is that something they should be punished for?

And, in a similar way, there are many who see Homosexuality the same way, as a perversion of the natural way sex should be. If we think paedophiles should be treated or imprisoned, can we really say that they are wrong also? Is the only difference harm, and what bearing does that have?

From:

I second your thoughts on paedophilia. See, the problem with this is that paedophilia as an action is pretty much intrinsically harmful, I think, but if as you suggest it's akin to homosexuality in that it's inborn, you're right when you suggest that we cannot punish people for the paedophilia itself, rather for the action.

:-/ which I guess sort of sucks for them?! It's like saying we can't punish people for being gay, but we can for the sexual act itself. Meh. That's kind of disturbing.

It's also disturbingly current viz. the Winston Peters Lindsay Peron... debacle. (Debacle is SUCH a good word for, like, anything involving dear old Winston)

From:

It's like saying we can't punish people for being gay, but we can for the sexual act itself. Meh. That's kind of disturbing.

Also, kind of how things used to be, in that you kept it too yourself but if you got caught you were punished.

I'm not sure if I made this point before, or implied it, but is tolerance good when its people who think like this ('punish those filthy queers' types) but aren't actively trying to stop it? I think that's tolerence, but is it enough? Would you still call it intolerence?

And with those very very squicky and torubling thoughts, let us return to fic.

If you think the writing is so bad it should be deleted and try to do so, I say intolerent.
If you think the writing is so bad it should be deleted but don't try and get it deleted regardless of what you say about it, I'm calling tolerent.
If you like the story, accepted.

Oo, I've missed the latest problem with Winston, what's that?
Last political thing I heard was John Campbell's April Fool and John Tmihaearerae (dagnabbit, I thought I knew that one...) being mean and sent to Think About What He Did.

From:

Sure.

... in fact, how it is in American military today. Guh.

I guess I don't think it's enough. I mean, maybe it's tolerance, but I think we should strive constantly for not just tolerance but acceptance. Of course this is reall hard. Often people who want to be accepting aren't able to- it's a process that happens over generations as a consequence of tolerance, whereas tolerance is something anyone can do if they choose to.

Obviously we're talking about homosexuality not paedophilia here. *wanted to make that way way clear*

I agree with the first two comments on intolerance and tolerance, but the second one I disagree with- as I said, accepting something doesn't mean you have to engage in it yourself, just to accept that it exists and it's not a bad thing!

From:

Well, by that reasoning, I am perfectly happy for people to dream up all the Mary Sues they want in their heads, as long as they don't write it down... :P

Seriously? Point taken. But I agree strongly that tolerance/=/acceptance and I am not going to accept bad writing. Tui would like me to strive for that, but, um, no.

And re:gays, the thing there is that being gay is a mutual thing, whereas pedophilia isn't. People can have healthy gay relationships, but I don't think there is such a thing as a healthy, consensual...um... *brain bleach*

Which brings up a whole different argument about age differential, especially relevant since one of my ships has a thirty year age gap, but anyway. I may start that thread in my own LJ instead of clogging up Tui's.

From:

Sorry for the icky thoughts, but it sprang to mind as similar issues.

Lets go back to OTP Generator shall we?

ForrestGump

is voting for

Anansi

What's Your Ultimate Fandom OTP?
Shiver My Timber--A Pirate RPG (http://shiver.therogue.net)

From:

being gay is a mutual thing

quick pedant, being gay does not depend on you having someone to be gay with. Acting gay (as in, the act of gay not just acting like the guys on Queer Eye) is the part that can be evaluated on harm (I agree that it is just as harmful as straight relationships). It is when you get this point that the child is harmed in paedophilia.

Dammit, I need to stop all of this and write my stories...

JohnLennon is running for President with MrNorrell

I'm going offline now...

From:

I dunno if you picked up on this, but what she meant was that being gay as in the act of homosexual sex is a consensual two-way thing, whereas paedophilia is neither.

From:

Oh yes, forgot to say: your chocolate cake does rock the world and you should totally come over to my house and bring some, and I will give you my apricot fudgecake, which also rocks, and all will be well, and all manner of things will be well, and oh dear I'm a geek.

From:

Heheheheheheh I KNOW MUAHAHAHA

But I can't come over I'm babysitting. You come here!

PS Did you get the email to theyfightcrime??

From:

Fine, I will, after tea. 7.30 do you?

From:

Sure!

We'll probably be eating around then, but you can... like... watch, or something. :D

Hmm, I have to go make tea now, don't I?

We're late because Dad's at a meeting running till like 7.30, and he told me to make tea for Hedly and myself at the usual time, but it turns out Hedley had Tae Kwon Do and won't be back till 745 anyway, so I didn't bother...

From:

megaffe.livejournal.com

can I come too? - in spirit at least... though spirt chocolate fudege cake just doesn't quiter taste the same, you know?

From:

*crying* YES WE LOVE YOU MEGGIE WE"RE EATING CHOCOLATE CAKE FOR YOU RIGHT NOW

*LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE*

<33333333333333333333

From:

Yes, we love you and miss you and we are going to mission down on Queen's Birthday and invade your Hall. Muahahaha. But you'll have to find someone else willing to put up with one of us. (Tui says it has to be me because I don't snore.)

And you have to mission up for Tui's birthday and we will take you to the Treehouse and lots of fun will be had by all. And you can meet Mike and Sara because they are cool people. :D

*hugs and kisses*

From:

rysade.livejournal.com

Tui, you probably didn't know this, but you revitalized my beleif in tolerance and cooperation. This happened a while ago, and I just thought I'd mention it and say thanks!

From: