(no subject)

[labellementeuse]

I actually don't think I can stand living on floor of people who believe in the death penalty and tell me I'm outrageous for disagreeing, basically.

*frustrated* Okay, not quite. This is basically what happened; we were watching CSI and when it finished we were talking about sentence terms in NZ. Lydia brought up the example of "a murder case which got two years, and then some guy who did armed robbery got ten years the next year; isn't that disgusting?" Please noticed I refrained from saying anything. I was trying real damn hard. I didn't ask Lydia if she knew the particulars of this case, I didn't challenge her, I didn't say a fucking wimpy liberal thing, even when Nick started bitching about the government. But then Jason said something I had to disagree with. I had to. I just can't, god, I can't just ;et people walk all over me because they fucking disagree with me and I cannot let some things go without a challenge; god knows they wouldn't.

Jason: I mean, in America they make their criminals pick up rubbish and stuff.
(noises of general agreement)
Me: (fairly mildly, for something I believe this strongly in) I don't believe in that, I think it's a removal of human rights.
Them: (words to the effect of "Well, but they're criminals, they're being punished.")
Me: (pretty strongly. Bad move, fine, but they all disagreed with me, what, I was supposed to just leave the room, walk away, feel like shit for a week? No. Fuckign. Way.) Um, no! Prison can't be a punishment.
They: *EXPLODE ALL OVER THE ROOM*
Me: No, look, we are not qualified to judge people. Criminals are sick.
Lydia: No, they're only sick if they get a mental health certificate. My mother works with the mentally ill, I know about this stuff.
Me: *refrains, forcibly, from saying how little qualified I think this makes Lydia* You know, that's wonderful, and I have intense respect for your mother. But I believe that people who commit crime are sick. Do you think anyone who commits a murder is, is, do you think anyone sane can do this? I mean a first-degree violent murder or rape? Murder at arms' length, through pollution, fine, maybe, but up close and personal?
Lyd: No, people who commit murder think it's okay, it's right
Me: EXACTLY, they are NOT IN THEIR RIGHT MINDS, they think it's okay. PLAINLY IT'S NOT OKAY, to us.
Lyd: I have a mental illness, does that make it okay for me to kill someone?
Me: (I HATE THIS DEFENSE, I really do.) NOT IT DOES NOT. Do you think it's OKAY to kill someone, Lydia?
Lyd: No, but I have a mental illness. (repeat last two sentences ad nauseam)
Me: ONE PERSON IN THREE HAS A FUCKING MENTAL ILLNESS. ONE PERSON IN THREE IS NOT A FUCKING CRIMINAL.
Lyd: Yes I know that!
Me: *durr*
Lyd: But, look, if your mother was killed, are you saying you would not want to punsih the person who killed her?
(I despise that tactic, Despise it.)
Me: I DON'T KNOW. I hope, I really hope, that I would not want to punish them.
lyd: If my mother was killed I would go out and kill the person who killed her.
Me: Oh, yeah, 'cause that would be okay, right?
Lyd: Yeah, an eye for an eye. I believe in the death penalty.
(Room: *murmurs agreement* I find this fucking incredible to see, BTW)
Me: *HAS A FUCKING SEIZURE* SHIT, an eye for an eye, Lydia, that doesn't WORK, that's TERRIBLE. Someone kills your mother, you kill them. someone else kills you, someone kills someone, everyone keeps killking IT DOESN'T WORK YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO JUDGE THAT'S WHAT THE LAW IS FOR, AND EVEN THE LAW IS NOT ABOUT JUDGING
Them: Yes it is! It's a way of judging and punishing people. Are you saying we shouldn't have laws?
Me: NO. We need laws, okay, they are the rules of government so that we can live together fairly and to try to stop things like murder and so forth, to deterr but not to punish.
Tom: Deterrence is punishment. Do you believe in prison?
Me: Yes, but not as punishment; as deterrent and as a way to keep other people safe, I'm not saying we let the serial kilelrs run free or anything...
Tom: But prison is punishment!
Me: No, it's not, it shouldn't be, that's why I don't believe in hard labour! Yes, in an ideal world we wouldn't have to put criminals in prison..
Tom: in an ideal world we wouldn't have crime
Me: (FUCKING HELL, mr Son of Two English Teachers) Okay, yes, that's true!
Tom: So don't make generaliations like that and try to back them up with a point. Generalisations are the mother of all fuckups- actually, that's assumptions, but hey.
Me: *frustrated* Wow, of course I can't argue with what you just said because it's true. (*thinkign: wow, he cleverly avoided saying fuck all, way to go Tom! *ANGER*) But I obviously just disagree with you all. I don't think we are qualified to judge and punish and obviously I don't beleive in the death penalty...
Lydia: Are you saying if you were raped you wouldn't want the person who raoed you be punished?
Me: I don't know, I've never been raped! I'm not, I mean, I hope I wouldn't but how can I know that? But we shouldn't be using emotion! That's, that's, that's why we have JURIES for fuck's sake...
Them: That's sick. That is so sick.
Me: (REALLY UPSET, here) Look, I have never been raped...
Lydia: Oh my god, can we not talk about rape, that's cutting a little close to home for some of us
Me: OH MY GOD YOU BROUGHT IT UP LYDIA! I DID NOT!
Muneya: Stop trying to force your opinion on us!
Me: *practically in tears* Look, I obviously just disagree with you here. I'm really sorry that you think that..
Lydia: Then you shouldn't have said this outrageous statement
me: Obviously you're right, I shouldn't have expressed a liberal opinion in a room ful of conservatives!
Tom: *CHUCKS A MENTAL* YOU JUST CROSSED A LINE. YOU DO NOT COME INTO MY ROOM AND JUDGE ME LIKE THAT, BLAH BLAH FUCKING BLAH, YOU TALK ABOUT JUDGING
Me: I'm sorry, Tom, I didn't mean to offend you and I certainly didn't meant to judge you, okay?
Lydia: I think you should apologise to the rest of us.
me: FINE *does so, name by fucking name, although frankly calling a bunch of people who just agreed to the death penalty conservatives does not seem very fucking extreme to me, thanks*
Katie: *tries to make peace*
(time passes)
Someone: hey, where's Nick?
Tom: he left. He got out of here!
Me: I'll go apologise to him. (NB: I meant apologise for upsetting him by being loud, NOT for saying any of the things which I said)
Katie: No, there's no need for that...
Lydia: Actually, i think she should apologise to all of us for being offensive!
me: *blown away* Excuse me, you called me sick, you guys all jumped on top of me when I fraily peacefully expressed an opinion.
Katie and Muneya: *FRANTICALLY SHUT EVERYONE UP*
(There is twenty minutes of uncomfortable conversation before I leave, because I think I'm going to start to cry and I refuse to do that there.)

You know what I wish I said to Lydia? I wish I'd said that I was not going to apologise for disagreeing with her, as she seemed to expect of me, nor for expressing an opinion. i did not mean to start an argument and frankly Lydia had an equal role in continuing it than I did- and I wasn't the one who started bringing personal insults like "That's sick" and "If you were raped" into it, because I recognise those as personal insults aside from the political and bad argument tactics, respectively. (I shouldn't have said that about conservatives, though.)

I am basically crying here. I can't stand this! It is not my fault nor my problem I disagree with them, I didn't bring it up, and I refuse to regret my opinions. I am being constantly held to blame for my disagreements- not because I express opinions any more frequently- in fact, I express them less, for the first time in my life. It's just that the group, as a whole, invariably disagrees with me so I look like the troublemaker. Forget all the things they've said that offend and upset me that I don't say anything about (and there are a lot); as soon as I offend them, look out!

I know this is not a good habit to be in; I have to live with these people for the rest of the year, I don't want them to hate me! But on the other hand I refuse to be constantly shut up and shut down because my opinions are in the minority. I also know the opinions in this post are very controversial and also they're incomplete; sometimes I do believe in punishment, like speeding tickets. Of course, the things I believe in punishment for are things they would think are okay- lydia's voting for some random ACT spokesperson because he wants to raise the speed limit, to give an example. Anyway, I know that because I am not the victim of violent crime, my mother isn't murdered, my daughter hasn't been raped, I know that sometimes saying this kind of thing is offensive and upsetting. And I really didn't mean to get far into it, and I'm deeply sorry if I hurt anyone (although I'm not, actually, all that sorry if I offend someone. Politically I am happy to offend people but not to hurt them; religiously and morally I dislike offending people because these, above all things, are so often personal that offense is often also hurt. Just so you know.)

*sigh* If you've read this far, thanks.

Comments

[lxlmindenlxl.livejournal.com]

I found your journal randomly ...

I'm, unfortunately, American and I agree whole-heartedly with what you said. And that's awesome that you kept voicing your beliefs despite everyone trying to drag you down. And you have no reason to be sorry.

[labellementeuse.livejournal.com]

:) Thank you very much- I really appreciate your words of support! I wish I knew more people like you- not who agreed with me (although, you know, that would be nice ;) ) But who thought it was good to stand up for yourself. Too often it's seen as a challenge...

[amphibious-one.livejournal.com]

Hmm. You've made me think. I'd have said that we need punishment (beyond just the going-to-prison... I mean, that conditions there would be significantly less comfortable than at their own homes) as a deterrent, but that doesn't hold up when you consider that people still go out and commit crimes.

However, do corporate criminals deserve punishment? Surely they must. Greed is the only mental illness such people could claim.

I've had arguments going along those lines before. Usually on some obscure grammar-related topic. Or on the pronunciation of 'schedule', heh. It seems like you got so frustrated not because they weren't agreeing but because they didn't argue well. And that's worse, 'cause all the best, most logical and hypocrisy-exposing arguments can so easily be deflated by a "but what if you..." retort.

Anyway. Big ups.

[labellementeuse.livejournal.com]

Of course, corporate criminals are the flaw in my generalisation! But then, they're the flaw in so much else. (I wonder, were white collar crime to be sentenced as the consequences rather than as the action itself, would we still have people crying for longer, tougher sentencing? IE if you take embezzlement. Embezzlement ultimately diverts resources from their intended recipients, right? Depending on what the intended recipient is, this leads to loss of money leads to poverty leads, statistically, to crime, including violent crime.... (um, I'm not saying poor people are criminals, I know it sounds like I am)

That's very true, actually. I don't mind a good argument- in fact I love one- but when people start attacking me personally, or using belowthe belt tactics, it's just.. so frustrating. Drives me up the wall.

Why, thanks. :)

[gianp.livejournal.com]

Obviously we've already talked on MSN, but just a few little things to remember:

* You might live with them. Doesn't mean you have to like them. Other people who you would actually want to be friends with will be attracted to you because you voice your opinion in the face of idiocy.

* You are entirely right in everything you've said. I know this because I am the center of the fucking universe and I am right about everything.

* You are infinitely cooler than all of those people, and therefore you have the right to voice whatever opinion you wish, whether you feel like backing it up or not. Tomorrow, tell them that all cars should be painted yellow. Or that black people should be incarcerated. Or that the borders should be turned into an iron curtain. Or that Winston Peters should lead a military coup against these liberal shitheads. Or that those conservative shitheads should be put to death. Or that all obnoxious sons of English teachers (never my favourite people in the world) should be given the death penalty for annoying you. That's my idea of insanity. Holier-than-though shitheads believing themselves superior. That's what the death penalty and hard labour should be introduced for. Hell. He's first against the wall when the revolution comes.

THANK YOU

[labellementeuse.livejournal.com]

*I hope so. :)

*Yessir, thank you sir!

*YOU ARE FABULOUS AND WONDERFUL except for the bit about Winston Peters. ;) <333333

[disturbed-kiwi.livejournal.com]

*hugs*

[labellementeuse.livejournal.com]

*hugsback*

Thank you.

[deutscheami.livejournal.com]

Oh, oh, oh, I am so sorry. I have to deal with idiots like that in my political science classes (you'd have fits; there's lovely people there that think torturing people is okay in the name of American security), but at least I only have to spend a few hours a week with them. Living with them... wow. You're a better person than I am. *squishhugs*

Whatever you do, don't stop expressing your opinion in their company. It's yours, you have a right to it, and if they think otherwise, nuts to them.

[labellementeuse.livejournal.com]

>.< And in a pol. sci. too... *hugsback*

:) Thank you. You help so much <3

[mandor700.livejournal.com]

I figure that jail is (or is supposed to be) about rehabilitation, with the exception of preventative-detention. you can lump speeding tickets and corpral punishment into the same group, they being in place primarily as a preventative measure. The probelm is that corpral punishment as a preventative measure dosent work, just look at the US (as we invariably seem to do on most controversial topics).
And now weve got this uproar about criminals suing the goverment for being mistreated, and the governments now passing legislation to prevent them doing this.
The sad thing is most people dont realise that jails are supposed to be for rehabilitation not just for locking up people and throwing away the key (except in some cases like hollywood movies). How can you expect to rehabilitate someone if you dont even treat them with the rights they're entitled to.
PS. just an interesting lil fact I found, theres and exemption in the Emancipation Act and the Bill of Rights in the US which means that criminals are alowd to be used as slave labour.
PPS. Do you realy want to be friends with these people considering their views? and arrogance?

[labellementeuse.livejournal.com]

Er, just a note, I'm fairly sure they don't have corporal punishment in the US, they have capital punishment. Corporal punishment is, like, torture.

Yes, I think I knew that about the emancipation act... kind of, well, TERRIBLE.

PPS: I do, yeah. I like them, they're generally smart and friendly. & I don't know arrogant is the best word to describe them.

[sixth-light.livejournal.com]

*hugs* Wow, there is something worse than just totally not connecting to three out of four people on your floor.

Look, as others have said: you don't _have_ to like them. I know you have been getting on really well with them (except Lydia) and it sucks that you had this sort of falling-out, but there's heaps of time left in the year. I'm sure you can patch it up. And, hey, you can always come over to my room whenever you want.

[labellementeuse.livejournal.com]

*hugsback*

But I do like them, quite a lot. I just totally, violently diagree with them one pretty much every topic known to man. I can deal with that, but I don't know if they can.

[anna-en-route.livejournal.com]

Hi,

Kind of randomly found your journal...(I think you commented on a post of mine)

You're absolutely right by the way...and group mentality can be kind of creepy especially when you're on the wrong side of it.

My suggestion would be quote statistics/history at them to prove the point, rates of recidivism vs prison terms/conditions for example, I'd make a guess that Scandanavian countries have a far lower rate of repeat offending than say...the States.

You seem like a good person (where as if it were me I probably couldn't resist using incredibly annoying tactics like taking their arguments to extremes or firing Arthur Alan Thomas at them)

[labellementeuse.livejournal.com]

Hi! :) I don't remember, but I'll take your word for it. :P It's a pleasure!

Umm, it's a good idea if I could find it... I suppose I could try Google, although perhaps it's bringing up a dead issue. :P Scandinavia's a good place to start.

Well, thanks. :) Arthur Alan Thomas??

[shoeless-girl.livejournal.com]

Oh hon, bravo you for saying what you believe, and not resorting to emotional tactics. That's just awesome, and I have so much respect for that.

Maybe try not to hang out with these people so much?

[labellementeuse.livejournal.com]

:) thank you so much... you're right, I probably should avoid them, but that seems... too lonely, basically. :( And normally we do get on.

[megaffe.livejournal.com]

*lots of hugs* keep true to yourself- your the best, they'll get used to you in time :)

[labellementeuse.livejournal.com]

*HEART*

Hey, email me. How was your first lecture? What was your first lecture? What's your room like? What are your roomies like (probably worse than mine. Please god worse than mine, you're at Selwyn!)

[persephone-kore.livejournal.com]

Sounds like being a conservative in fandom, except I don't have to live here. ;)

Can't say I'm too impressed with anybody's behavior or logic as you depicted it, I confess. It reminds me of the political debates when I was in eighth grade -- we all made some really lousy arguments, and there are some points I still regret conceding.

[labellementeuse.livejournal.com]

:) Heh... even in fandom, though, it's possible to have discussion without getting violent and personal. For example, you and I disagree on... hm... oh, yeah, that's right, EVERYTHING, but I still enjoy your company and journal and, of course, fic, not to mention your opinions on a wide range of topics- although you do steer clear of politics, probably wisely.

My point is, anyway, fandom is not so... well, I was going to say not so vicious, but of course it can be. It's perhaps not so threatening, although I really do sympathise with your own position. :-/

I'm amazed I managed to depict anything even half-coherently, I must confess...! I don't know, I never know if I'm as reasonable as I think I am- I know that I speak strongly, but I hope I don't employ scare-tactics and bad arguments the way I feel they are employed against me.

[cabaiste84.livejournal.com]

Hey Tui,
Sorry that you're feeling so rotten- I can sooo sympathise, I have gotten into some very violent arguments with mates about various different sensitive issues, and have ended up feeling crap afterwards.
I take my hat off to you for being passionate about what you believe in, and having the courage and faith to stand up and voice what you believe in...too many people just bite their tongues and stay silent about the things they passionately believe in, just for the sake of being liked and accepted by the masses.
For the record, I don't believe in the death penalty either. I would say that I do believe that life imprisonment should mean life, and that anyone who takes the life of another, should die in jail...but I also do believe in rehabilitation for violent criminals, I think it's something our country could most certainly work towards. A lot of people would say that people can most definitely be natural born killers, because it's in their "bad blood", but I believe that you are a product of your environment and upbringing, and anyone with a violent and abusive upbringing is very likely to repeat the cycle in later life.
Now, I'm NOT saying that someone should not be held accountable for their violent actions, just because they had a "bad childhood" or some other crap like that...but I don't believe capital punishment or letting them rot in a prison cell for the rest of their lives is the best way of going about it. And, I don't believe that killing the murderer of someone you loved, or throwing them in jail, is going to ease your pain in any way. Even if justice IS done, you are still the one with the life sentence, and you will be left with your grief and sense of loss long after the murderer is punished. Having them hanged, or put in the electric chair, or beheaded is not going to bring your loved-one back.
Which brings me to my next point: I hate it too when people always bring up "what ifs" in arguments, like what Lydia did, because we just can't know until we've been there! That's like saying, "If you were raped, would you have an abortion?", or "If your husband hit you once, would you leave him?" We haven't been in any of those situations before, therefore we cannot say how we would deal with it, or what we would do. I mean, I honestly don't know what I'd do if my mothers was murder, or I was raped- I haven't been there, therefore I'm not qualified to judge. I mean, we know how we'd cope in an IDEAL WORLD, but we can't know unless we've been there.
So yeah, that's my two cents worth. I know that when you discuss controversial subjects such as this, there is bound to be a bit of screaming and yelling, and clashing of opinions. But, when discussions like this happen again, my advice to you would be to embrace it, and go with it, and be happy that you are meeting people at Uni that are prepared to discuss the deeper issues in life, and not just blab on about what so-and-so is wearing, and who's been hooking-up with who while they were drunk on Thursday night. That's what Uni is all about: meeting people that love to discuss the same things as you, and who you can have deep chats with, and go away feeling fulfilled. Trust me, if they are real friends, they will appreciate the fact that you actually HAVE an opinion, and will respect you for not being afraid to speak out.
How's Uni Hall going generally?

[miriamus.livejournal.com]

Erin do you have MSN at the flat?

[greycolourgirl.livejournal.com]

I myself don`t completely agree with you. But I don`t agree with them either. I believe that yes, criminals should be punished for what they did. But to a certain extent. The certain extent is putting them in a prison without what one might classify as `sane` human contact. Killing them only brings us down to their level of `insanity`, I suppose, because we`re just enforing what they did.
For me, the death penalty is a sick thing, because it`s a sick as a murderer killing a child. It`s just not the correct kind of punishment. I suppose what i`m trying to say is the kind of punishment we should give them for doing such an aweful thing is something that contradicts the thing they did, not forcing them to work, not forcing them to die.
In fact, I agree with you more than I do them, because they are just enforcing violence, not peace. They`re saying it`s alright to kill, when it`s not and that`s why the criminals are in prison in the first place.

[labellementeuse.livejournal.com]

:D I don't require that everyone agree with me! But at least you take the time to lay out what you think, and why you disagree, thoughtfully, carefully, and respectfully.

I mean, I don't do that most of the time either, IRL. But I wish I did, and I do make an effort to!

[a-linz.livejournal.com]

Hm, I'm still thinking about this. Unlike you or the people you live with, I haven't quite made up my mind about the issue of sentence terms yet so I don't feel I have much to say at this point, but

*HUGGLES AND GLOMPS*

I hope the ranting helped, hun. Lydia sounds like a right bitch.

[labellementeuse.livejournal.com]

*HUGGLES* XXOO

It did, a lot. But so are you guys. :)

she totally is she's not really that bad. Kinda.

[miriamus.livejournal.com]

Fear the wrath of Philosophy Tui!!! *hugs* To me, prison is a combination of punishment, rehabilitation, deterrent and protection of others, but don't ask me to back it up because I can't ;) I know how it feels though, because a few days ago I found myself in a vicious argument about the moral of the lamp-lighter chapter of Le Petit Prince. I thought it was saying that you can't always keep following orders or keeping to expectations without questioning them, no matter how worthy the cause, if following unquestioningly causes you distress (like the lamp lighter refusing to stop lighting and putting out his lamp, because "it's the order", even though he is exhausted, miserable, and has no time for himself since his planet sped up.) I kept pointing out that he is tired and disillusioned, and that it's obvious that he's unhappy because he keeps lighting and putting out the lamp without considering what it's doing to him, but EVERY SINGLE OTHER PERSON IN THE CLASS insisted that the chapter is simply about how the lamp-lighter is a good and beautiful person unlike the selfish people on the previous planets, because his job is "beautiful" and benefits other people, and because the Little Prince likes him so he must be worthy *eyeroll* I don't appreciate it at all when people INTERRUPT and SUPPRESS interpretations of something simply because it's not what's been spelled out to them as right... like your floor-mates. :( Just remember that real friends (and real intellectuals!) respect your right to voice an opinion even if they don't agree *hugsmore*

[miriamus.livejournal.com]

That probably looked a bit hypocritical, being that it seems like I was probably undermining everybody else, but my intention WAS to just throw in another interpretation of the chapter than what was in the notes and I got jumped on. I never denied that the lamp-lighter was doing the world a service...

[nic-the-hat.livejournal.com]

To be completely honest, all this Crime and Punishment stuff makes my brain ache: On the one hand, I think rehabilitation is the way to go...on the otherhand, are there some crimes that are so terrible that there is no sceond chance?
It's bought up some intresting points...hmmm.

I wonder what Lydia would say if I came down there and said,
"You upset Tui-you must be punished?" *Cough* "I will now send you to a place for rehabilitating conservitives....wait a mintue!You don't beleive in rehabilitation! I'll just have to lock you inside a box and leave you in the mountains."

Sometimes there's no constructive way to deal with the Lydias and Toms of this world. Though I'm all for giving you a sainthood.

*Hugs*

[labellementeuse.livejournal.com]

I absolutely believe in rehabilitation- and, of course sometimes it doesn't work. Some people are never going to rehabilitate. That's just the way it is because we don't have the knowledge to help everyone. But also, I believe strongly in second chances- in fact, I don't think a first chance even comes into it, because... I'm not sure, a bit foggy on that.

*giggling* Yeah, exactly.

<333 thank you!!

[tanizard.livejournal.com]

Not wanting to get into my opinion either way (mainly because I don't think I have a strong opinion on this particular subject), I'm still extremely proud that you voiced your opinions, and I really think it EXTREMELY fucking arrogant that they expected you to APOLOGISE to them. I AM INDIGNANT ON YOUR BEHALF.

*hug*

[labellementeuse.livejournal.com]

THANK YOU :D :D :D

*huggles*

[nzlemming.livejournal.com]

Oy, what a big post, and what an issue. Indications are that you can't win, regardless of the cogency of your arguments, the purity of your logic or the flawlessness of your philosophy, if it's up against Teh Emotional Position(tm) [which is kinda like Teh Moral Highground(tm) in religious arguments] so the only answer is "don't fight".

[Continued in email.]

[labellementeuse.livejournal.com]

:-/ I don't think that is the answer, actually, and I wasn't the one who maade it a fight. But thank you.

[mipol.livejournal.com]

Ugh, it's things like this that make me glad I was never in a hall of residence.

*hugs*

[labellementeuse.livejournal.com]

*huggles* Thank you! :)

Well, it's not all bad. I hope.

Rysade

[(Anonymous)]

*Thinks hard* The problem with rehabilitation is you get things like "Re-education camps" where people are brainwashed into behaving differently. The Clockwork Orange effect. Can violent crime be 'cured?' Perhaps the best thing is to simply move the violent offendors somewhere, like a commune. But there arises the possibility of an armed insurrection, so guards must be employed... you can easily see how this reasoning would lead to the modern prison system. And yet prisons have their own problems - the inmates are incarcerated against their will, and often have their civil rights violated in a manner not unlike their victims' rights were. And what of innocents? If they didn't actually DO it, then they are being treated unfairly, and should be given a chance to prove their innocence. That is clearly NOT possible in the case of the death penalty (as in The Green Mile).

Yep - Crime and Punishment have some serious problems, and while we can't seriously consider letting all offendors go, there still exist moral issues with punishing them too...

These people you talked to - whoever they were - did not realize that there are viable options to the existing system, and also have decidedly one sided view of the issues. For example, they ask 'what if you were killed' but not 'what if you were a killer.' They need to consider the possibility that there are two victims of a murder - the dead one and the one holding the gun.

Re: Rysade

[labellementeuse.livejournal.com]

That's not rehabilitaation, that's brainwash- the two situations are not terribly related, because the brainwashing (especially the way the CO did it) is as much a violation of human rights as the death penalty. Of course, the Clockwork Orange thing is a problem, but one which arises from taking things to extremes- where all problems lie.

I think, generally, the modern prison system theory would work fairly well; it falls down in the practicalities, somewhat akin to the problems with practicing communism.

I guess from their point of view, a criminal's needs, rights, feelings etc are irrelevant to the course of "justice" as it were- as if, once a criminal, we are no longer human. :-/ That's why prison as a ounishment fails.