(no subject)

[labellementeuse]

I actually don't think I can stand living on floor of people who believe in the death penalty and tell me I'm outrageous for disagreeing, basically.

*frustrated* Okay, not quite. This is basically what happened; we were watching CSI and when it finished we were talking about sentence terms in NZ. Lydia brought up the example of "a murder case which got two years, and then some guy who did armed robbery got ten years the next year; isn't that disgusting?" Please noticed I refrained from saying anything. I was trying real damn hard. I didn't ask Lydia if she knew the particulars of this case, I didn't challenge her, I didn't say a fucking wimpy liberal thing, even when Nick started bitching about the government. But then Jason said something I had to disagree with. I had to. I just can't, god, I can't just ;et people walk all over me because they fucking disagree with me and I cannot let some things go without a challenge; god knows they wouldn't.

Jason: I mean, in America they make their criminals pick up rubbish and stuff.
(noises of general agreement)
Me: (fairly mildly, for something I believe this strongly in) I don't believe in that, I think it's a removal of human rights.
Them: (words to the effect of "Well, but they're criminals, they're being punished.")
Me: (pretty strongly. Bad move, fine, but they all disagreed with me, what, I was supposed to just leave the room, walk away, feel like shit for a week? No. Fuckign. Way.) Um, no! Prison can't be a punishment.
They: *EXPLODE ALL OVER THE ROOM*
Me: No, look, we are not qualified to judge people. Criminals are sick.
Lydia: No, they're only sick if they get a mental health certificate. My mother works with the mentally ill, I know about this stuff.
Me: *refrains, forcibly, from saying how little qualified I think this makes Lydia* You know, that's wonderful, and I have intense respect for your mother. But I believe that people who commit crime are sick. Do you think anyone who commits a murder is, is, do you think anyone sane can do this? I mean a first-degree violent murder or rape? Murder at arms' length, through pollution, fine, maybe, but up close and personal?
Lyd: No, people who commit murder think it's okay, it's right
Me: EXACTLY, they are NOT IN THEIR RIGHT MINDS, they think it's okay. PLAINLY IT'S NOT OKAY, to us.
Lyd: I have a mental illness, does that make it okay for me to kill someone?
Me: (I HATE THIS DEFENSE, I really do.) NOT IT DOES NOT. Do you think it's OKAY to kill someone, Lydia?
Lyd: No, but I have a mental illness. (repeat last two sentences ad nauseam)
Me: ONE PERSON IN THREE HAS A FUCKING MENTAL ILLNESS. ONE PERSON IN THREE IS NOT A FUCKING CRIMINAL.
Lyd: Yes I know that!
Me: *durr*
Lyd: But, look, if your mother was killed, are you saying you would not want to punsih the person who killed her?
(I despise that tactic, Despise it.)
Me: I DON'T KNOW. I hope, I really hope, that I would not want to punish them.
lyd: If my mother was killed I would go out and kill the person who killed her.
Me: Oh, yeah, 'cause that would be okay, right?
Lyd: Yeah, an eye for an eye. I believe in the death penalty.
(Room: *murmurs agreement* I find this fucking incredible to see, BTW)
Me: *HAS A FUCKING SEIZURE* SHIT, an eye for an eye, Lydia, that doesn't WORK, that's TERRIBLE. Someone kills your mother, you kill them. someone else kills you, someone kills someone, everyone keeps killking IT DOESN'T WORK YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO JUDGE THAT'S WHAT THE LAW IS FOR, AND EVEN THE LAW IS NOT ABOUT JUDGING
Them: Yes it is! It's a way of judging and punishing people. Are you saying we shouldn't have laws?
Me: NO. We need laws, okay, they are the rules of government so that we can live together fairly and to try to stop things like murder and so forth, to deterr but not to punish.
Tom: Deterrence is punishment. Do you believe in prison?
Me: Yes, but not as punishment; as deterrent and as a way to keep other people safe, I'm not saying we let the serial kilelrs run free or anything...
Tom: But prison is punishment!
Me: No, it's not, it shouldn't be, that's why I don't believe in hard labour! Yes, in an ideal world we wouldn't have to put criminals in prison..
Tom: in an ideal world we wouldn't have crime
Me: (FUCKING HELL, mr Son of Two English Teachers) Okay, yes, that's true!
Tom: So don't make generaliations like that and try to back them up with a point. Generalisations are the mother of all fuckups- actually, that's assumptions, but hey.
Me: *frustrated* Wow, of course I can't argue with what you just said because it's true. (*thinkign: wow, he cleverly avoided saying fuck all, way to go Tom! *ANGER*) But I obviously just disagree with you all. I don't think we are qualified to judge and punish and obviously I don't beleive in the death penalty...
Lydia: Are you saying if you were raped you wouldn't want the person who raoed you be punished?
Me: I don't know, I've never been raped! I'm not, I mean, I hope I wouldn't but how can I know that? But we shouldn't be using emotion! That's, that's, that's why we have JURIES for fuck's sake...
Them: That's sick. That is so sick.
Me: (REALLY UPSET, here) Look, I have never been raped...
Lydia: Oh my god, can we not talk about rape, that's cutting a little close to home for some of us
Me: OH MY GOD YOU BROUGHT IT UP LYDIA! I DID NOT!
Muneya: Stop trying to force your opinion on us!
Me: *practically in tears* Look, I obviously just disagree with you here. I'm really sorry that you think that..
Lydia: Then you shouldn't have said this outrageous statement
me: Obviously you're right, I shouldn't have expressed a liberal opinion in a room ful of conservatives!
Tom: *CHUCKS A MENTAL* YOU JUST CROSSED A LINE. YOU DO NOT COME INTO MY ROOM AND JUDGE ME LIKE THAT, BLAH BLAH FUCKING BLAH, YOU TALK ABOUT JUDGING
Me: I'm sorry, Tom, I didn't mean to offend you and I certainly didn't meant to judge you, okay?
Lydia: I think you should apologise to the rest of us.
me: FINE *does so, name by fucking name, although frankly calling a bunch of people who just agreed to the death penalty conservatives does not seem very fucking extreme to me, thanks*
Katie: *tries to make peace*
(time passes)
Someone: hey, where's Nick?
Tom: he left. He got out of here!
Me: I'll go apologise to him. (NB: I meant apologise for upsetting him by being loud, NOT for saying any of the things which I said)
Katie: No, there's no need for that...
Lydia: Actually, i think she should apologise to all of us for being offensive!
me: *blown away* Excuse me, you called me sick, you guys all jumped on top of me when I fraily peacefully expressed an opinion.
Katie and Muneya: *FRANTICALLY SHUT EVERYONE UP*
(There is twenty minutes of uncomfortable conversation before I leave, because I think I'm going to start to cry and I refuse to do that there.)

You know what I wish I said to Lydia? I wish I'd said that I was not going to apologise for disagreeing with her, as she seemed to expect of me, nor for expressing an opinion. i did not mean to start an argument and frankly Lydia had an equal role in continuing it than I did- and I wasn't the one who started bringing personal insults like "That's sick" and "If you were raped" into it, because I recognise those as personal insults aside from the political and bad argument tactics, respectively. (I shouldn't have said that about conservatives, though.)

I am basically crying here. I can't stand this! It is not my fault nor my problem I disagree with them, I didn't bring it up, and I refuse to regret my opinions. I am being constantly held to blame for my disagreements- not because I express opinions any more frequently- in fact, I express them less, for the first time in my life. It's just that the group, as a whole, invariably disagrees with me so I look like the troublemaker. Forget all the things they've said that offend and upset me that I don't say anything about (and there are a lot); as soon as I offend them, look out!

I know this is not a good habit to be in; I have to live with these people for the rest of the year, I don't want them to hate me! But on the other hand I refuse to be constantly shut up and shut down because my opinions are in the minority. I also know the opinions in this post are very controversial and also they're incomplete; sometimes I do believe in punishment, like speeding tickets. Of course, the things I believe in punishment for are things they would think are okay- lydia's voting for some random ACT spokesperson because he wants to raise the speed limit, to give an example. Anyway, I know that because I am not the victim of violent crime, my mother isn't murdered, my daughter hasn't been raped, I know that sometimes saying this kind of thing is offensive and upsetting. And I really didn't mean to get far into it, and I'm deeply sorry if I hurt anyone (although I'm not, actually, all that sorry if I offend someone. Politically I am happy to offend people but not to hurt them; religiously and morally I dislike offending people because these, above all things, are so often personal that offense is often also hurt. Just so you know.)

*sigh* If you've read this far, thanks.

Comments

[mandor700.livejournal.com]

I figure that jail is (or is supposed to be) about rehabilitation, with the exception of preventative-detention. you can lump speeding tickets and corpral punishment into the same group, they being in place primarily as a preventative measure. The probelm is that corpral punishment as a preventative measure dosent work, just look at the US (as we invariably seem to do on most controversial topics).
And now weve got this uproar about criminals suing the goverment for being mistreated, and the governments now passing legislation to prevent them doing this.
The sad thing is most people dont realise that jails are supposed to be for rehabilitation not just for locking up people and throwing away the key (except in some cases like hollywood movies). How can you expect to rehabilitate someone if you dont even treat them with the rights they're entitled to.
PS. just an interesting lil fact I found, theres and exemption in the Emancipation Act and the Bill of Rights in the US which means that criminals are alowd to be used as slave labour.
PPS. Do you realy want to be friends with these people considering their views? and arrogance?

[labellementeuse.livejournal.com]

Er, just a note, I'm fairly sure they don't have corporal punishment in the US, they have capital punishment. Corporal punishment is, like, torture.

Yes, I think I knew that about the emancipation act... kind of, well, TERRIBLE.

PPS: I do, yeah. I like them, they're generally smart and friendly. & I don't know arrogant is the best word to describe them.

[mandor700.livejournal.com]

lol sorry it was a bit early in the mornin for me. I think we need to get rid of capital in NZ as a priority, its kinda hard to critisize other countries when we still have it, even if we havent done it in aeons.

[nzlemming.livejournal.com]

We don't have capital punishment in New Zealand.

New Zealand has played a key role in the development of many United Nations instruments in particular helping draft the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and a number of the human rights Covenants and Conventions. Conversely our law has been strengthened by the standards adopted by the worlds’ nations as those of civilised societies. In December 1989 the General Assembly adopted the 2nd Optional Protocol to the ICCPR aiming at the complete abolition of the death penalty, noting that its abolition contributes to the enhancement of human dignity and progressive development of human rights and pointing in particular to Article 3 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights which guarantees to everyone the right to life, liberty and security of person. New Zealand is among the 44 States which have ratified the 2nd Optional Protocol. The majority of member States of the United Nations have not therefore yet indicated formal acceptanc! e of the complete abolition of the death penalty. However, the vast majority of the 187 member States of the United Nations acknowledge that no matter how heinous the crime, no child who commits a capital offence should be subjected to the death penalty recognising that the level of maturity of a child under the age of 18 will often have a bearing on his or her ability to reason or to recognise right from wrong. The Convention on the Rights of the Child provides that:

"(a) No child shall be subjected to torture or other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. Neither capital punishment nor life imprisonment without possibility of release shall be imposed for offences committed by persons below 18 years of age ..."

There are only two member States which have not ratified this Convention. One is the United States of America which in at least two of its States, continues to execute those who have committed capital offences while under the age of 18.

The impact on New Zealand of the movement to abolish the death penalty has been marked. Capital punishment was effectively abolished 40 years ago and in 1989 immediately before New Zealand ratified the 2nd Optional Protocol it was completely excluded for all offences including treason. There remains an antipathy to the death penalty in New Zealand. However, public opinion can so easily change. In the face of public outrage at a series of particularly brutal offences, strong community and political leadership will be required to avert the reintroduction of capital punishment.

http://www.nzllg.org.nz/events.cfm?folderid=221

[mandor700.livejournal.com]

Yea we do, but only for Treason. Thats still really good by comparison especialy given that the last time a guy was tried was sometime in the 70s and he got off, but its still capital punishment.

[labellementeuse.livejournal.com]

From the above article:
"in 1989 immediately before New Zealand ratified the 2nd Optional Protocol it was completely excluded for all offences including treason."

Um. ??

[nzlemming.livejournal.com]

What she said

[mandor700.livejournal.com]

oh well i'm wrong, I could swear that we still had that tho, just cant remember where from.